Talk:Deaths on 24
This article has an archived talk page: see Talk:Deaths on 24/Archive. __FORCETOC__ Summary of unresolved archive issues I just archived the old talk page because it was too long to be readable (as has been done in the past with Tony's talk page and the Main Page talk). For convenience's sake, I have summarized below the possible remaining changes to the Death tally which other editors have brought up. These have not been resolved to my knowledge. I'm not taking credit for these items, the credit goes to various editors including (in no particular order) Ggjk, William.Y.Fremont, Acer4666, Mjs1103, ASHPD24, and perhaps others. # + 2 The Day 1 MUDD siege: Acer has two very strong points to support the argument that 2 guys entered the underground prison with Drazen, but refrained from making the changes himself. This shouldn't be too hard to verify. Confirmed: the Victor transfer scene is hectic, and I only see 9 people maximum at any one point (which is the old number), but this doesn't rule out anything, because just as Acer says, later when DeSalvo radios for Ray and Lawrence, there are minimum random 5 other men visible with him, Jack, and Victor. Ray and Laurence are obviously off-screen, which makes 10 individuals not just 9 anymore, since the transfer. Add 1 more to the 10 to get 11 men grand total since the chopper pair seemed to remain. This merely means that during the DeSalvo radioing scene, 1 more guy was off-screen as well, whether he's nearby, or farther away with Ray and Lawrence in the shootout. It's the only logical explanation for the discrepancy, good work Acer. # + 1 Chopper pilot with Shareef: there is no way Shareef and his guy Salim were flying themselves around. At least 1 chopper crewman died with them. Unless someone has some more information, we definitely should add this. Confirmed: the chopper crash news reporter says it was a military helicopter so bare minimum 1 American serviceman died too. # + 800 Minimum from Chandler Plaza: when was this number seen or mentioned? It's the biggest unresolved issue of the whole list. Whoops, wait a minute. Although Michelle (ep22) and Jack (ep23) both mention this minimum number, we have a complication. This figure includes "dead or dying" and we don't count people who died outside the 24 hour time period, correct? As such, this is a minimum for overall virus deaths, but we'll never know what proportion of the 800 died before Day 3 ended, which is our deadline. Right? I feel dumb I forgot this. ::At the minute, people like Craig Phillips, William Cole, etc., are on the list. I am right in saying that Gael was the only confirmed death from the hotel before the end of the day? If so, these guys need to be removed.--Acer4666 (talk) 13:46, January 17, 2012 (UTC) :::More on this - during Day 3: 7:00am-8:00am, at least two people are seen being bagged up or wheeled away. However, Jack Bauer also says to Jane Saunders about her father that "this morning he killed hundreds of people". The use of killed, in the past tense, suggests that at least 200 died before the close of the day.--Acer4666 (talk) 22:39, January 17, 2012 (UTC) ::In Day 3: 8:00am-9:00am, Jack showed Jane Saunders the live video of Chandler Plaza and told her that "The people that you are looking at will all be dead within next 2 or 3 hours and almost 800 hundred of them were infected", which means these people were indeed dead before Day 3 ends. So I say that we should add these 800 deaths and there's no need to remove Phillips and Cole. --William 15:59, January 23, 2012 (UTC) :::They've now been added - and I don't see a problem with the argument above where Jack confirms that they'll all die before 12pm at the latest. The "dead or dying" mentioned in 10am-11am and 11am-12pm were to include any that were still alive, but by 12pm they were all dead.--Acer4666 (talk) 10:58, July 23, 2012 (UTC) :::I've separated out Gael Ortega (because we have an exact time of death) and Marcus Alvers (because his potential killer is different), and so revised the total to 799 deaths (as casualty figures never include the terrorists who are behind the attack)--Acer4666 (talk) 11:15, July 23, 2012 (UTC) # + 3 Felsted deaths - 6 different bodies of workers are seen, and Mitchell's death is never confirmed, adding 1 felsted employee to the list. Additionally, the CTU team that went was 4 strong and it was stated to have been wiped out the following episode, adding an extra 2 CTU deaths in addition to Criag Eriwch and Rick. I've added these--Acer4666 (talk) 17:12, January 13, 2012 (UTC) # + 2 Rockland building goons: William.Y.Fremont is right when he says that two bodies are seen, one killed by Curtis and one by Lee Castle's team. They're definitely not the bodies of Forbes or Adam or Jason, and no attempt is made to restrain them, so I think it's clear they were killed. I'll add them in--Acer4666 (talk) 16:05, January 9, 2012 (UTC) # + 3 Mclennen-Forster commandos - 6 kills are seen on-screen, 3 outside and 3 inside the store. Lee Castle then reports that there are 6 bodies outside and and unknown number inside, meaning total deaths before Castle moves in is 9.--Acer4666 (talk) 17:12, January 13, 2012 (UTC) # + 5 CTU agents transportting Bierko: Two agents sit beside Bierko and two agents in the lead car. And there should be at least one agent in the third vehicle. So I think we should add the 5. :: See the thread "Bierko's 3:36am prison escort" right below this one. 21:22, July 23, 2012 (UTC) # + 10 Natalia sailors: I plan to re-watch the scenes before and after Bierko invaded the submarine, and count bodies etc. This might be tricky but again, a minimum number is very good to have. ::Here's how I see the gassing go down. Initially, Southern is with 3 other guys. All are wearing dark blue clothes: Skeet has his sleeves rolled up, Dominic Competore's character has an armband, and the other guy has fair hair. None of the bodies that turn up later have any of these three characteristics - therefore these 3 die. Plus Southern, that makes 4. When the gassing happens, we see 4 different guys go down in large open spaces (not tight corridors). 8 so far. Bierko then enters the sub, passing a slumped body in a tight corridor. 9 so far. Then in the next episode, outside the sub there are 3 bodies seen at the port (one by the gate to the pier, 2 by the gangplank to the sub). 12 so far. When Tim Rooney checks the cameras, he sees 3 dead bodies, all in tight corridors (none in the same position as the "tight corridor" body of last episode). 15 so far. Before Rooney kills the sentry, he sees a fair haired guy, with light blue shirt, dead in open space. None of the open space deaths from last episode had fair hair. Now we're on 16. After Jack enters the sub, he passes a guy slumped in a corridor, but this is the same body Bierko passed last episode. So far we've got 6 innocent deaths listed, I think an extra 10 should be added. I can provide pics if needed--Acer4666 (talk) 20:10, January 14, 2012 (UTC) :I think there's a body when the Jean Smart credit appeared. And another one when Bierko fell down to the ground. About the rest I think you are right. --William 16:04, January 21, 2012 (UTC) # + 200 Fayed's Baltimore mall bomb, and possibly others. I will verify this very soon, too, if nobody beats me too it. The shopping mall does indeed have at least 200 deaths by 8am. The problem is, Buchanan also says "the casualty estimate in St. Louis has risen to 112". This makes no sense, as in the previous episode the 3 targets were Chicago, Baltimore, and LA, and then in this one he briefs Palmer about casualties in St. Louis, Baltimore, and LA. I honestly think this is a mistake, and he means that the casualties from the hotel have risen from 47 to 112. Dunno what others think--Acer4666 (talk) 17:44, January 13, 2012 (UTC) # + 1 New issue - the raid on Fayed's apartment in Day 6: 1:00pm-2:00pm. Having watched the scenes carefully, I'm sure that excluding Fayed there are 7 different guys in the apartment. We only see 6 killed during the raid, but afterwards Hal Turner says that they did a head count of bodies and only 1 guy got away: Fayed. So I think an extra one needs to be added.--Acer4666 (talk) 17:12, January 13, 2012 (UTC) # + 1,000 Valencia nuclear bomb - In Day 6: 12:00am-1:00am, Peter Hock said to Karen Hayes that "The country's in shock after losing 13.000 innocent lives". So I think the casualties have grown to 13,000 and another thousand deaths should be added to this page. The number 13,000 might have been mentioned in other episodes as well, as Ggjk has stated. --William 05:27, January 14, 2012 (UTC) ::It's true Peter Hock says 13,000 - but I think once we've establiashed how many casualties have been killed in the other attacks we'd have to take that off, as he doesn't specify they're nuke deaths, just overall casualties of Fayed throughout the day. So maybe about 700 extra--Acer4666 (talk) 11:40, January 14, 2012 (UTC) :You're probably right. So after we cut off the LA (23), Chicago (112) and Baltimore bombing (200) 335 deaths, we need to add an extra 665 deaths. --William 11:58, January 14, 2012 (UTC) # + 1 In Day 7: 9:00am-10:00am, dvd time around 06:42 Larry Moss says "there was sniper fire at Schector's office, we got 3 dead bodies", indicating someone else other than Ari and Gabriel Schector was killed there--Acer4666 (talk) 23:43, March 23, 2012 (UTC) # ? did 2 or 4 Juma dudes die with gas explosion? # + 1 FBI agent killed by Galvez's bombs, definitely, but William.Y.Fremont, could there be more? :All right, at least two agents. --William 09:12, January 22, 2012 (UTC) # + 1 Apparently, a news reporter said that 3 people died during Davros's attack. I no longer believe that the cop Jim Koernig and his wife Maggie were being referred to at all. It had to be Davros himself; the limo driver William.Y.Fremont discovered; and the agent stabbed to death by Farhad. Soon we will have these resolved. And I already verified and added stuff mentioned by William and others about the Air Force One crash minimum death count and the minimum number of Derek Rosner co-workers. Personally I can't wait for the next crop of issues to come up so we can solve them, too, and perhaps there will be a day when we realize we've counted everyone there was to count. 02:14, January 7, 2012 (UTC) :Massive thanks for going through that monster talk page and summarising it! Just having a flick through myself, was there also some missed deaths on the Rockland Building in Season 4 to check out? Dead bodies on the floor as Jack and Curtis meet up. :On the topic of Season 4 - do deaths from 24: Conspiracy need to be included, as they happen during the 24-hour period of Season 4? In a way, the 257 people killed in Flight 221 are just as much wholly eu characters, never seen or mentioned in the TV show.--Acer4666 (talk) 19:51, January 7, 2012 (UTC) :: First, I'm really sorry I didn't notice that Kevin Keeler was on there already when I added the 75 earlier. My bad Acer, and thanks for going through and fixing that. (Next time I do something stupid like that feel free to just point it out.) And yes you're right I may have missed something, if you want, you can like add it right to my post with a different color or something, and sign it individually, for convenience's sake so people will see em all together. :: The Flight 221 issue came up sometime before, and the result of the talk was: those people died during the first episode of Season 1. The only thing the Expanded Universe did was specify the number, right? :: As for Conspiracy, it's an interesting point although they probably don't need to be added since it was entirely a spin-off. People come to this page for television episode deaths, and that's what it historically has encompassed. 07:28, January 8, 2012 (UTC) Research on 1, 2, and 3 reported in colored text above. 08:03, January 9, 2012 (UTC) :Added some rockland building deaths as point 4. No probs about the Keeler - didn't take too long to alter! :I suppose factu only specified deaths already hinted at, and yeah I'm not mad keen on adding conspiracy deaths (although the current inclusion criteria wording would include them) so no big deal. Ideally I'd like this page to exclude all eu info completely - what I loved about s1 was the casual killing off of established characters like Mark DeSalvo, Krugman, Ted Paulson, and then Mark Cerasini wades in and arbitrarily decides to keep some alive, kind of robbing the show of the drama of those scenes. I think it's cos back when season 1 was originally on TV, I made a list of deaths myself, without reading the eu material. Anyway, rant over! Back to confirming these points.--Acer4666 (talk) 18:29, January 9, 2012 (UTC) ::Regarding the Rockland building situation, after Jack met up with Curtis, Lee asked "How many are still alive" and Curtis replied "I'm not sure. But at least four" (which I believe including Ali). And during the 05:52:14 split screen a man can be seen lying on the ground (I'm not sure if he was the same man killed by Curtis, but it would be strange that Lee and his men spent five minutes staying at the same place). Since that henchman killed by Curtis had been added by Acer, I think that we should add another 2 more deaths. Any objections? ::Also when that IDS Flase Marwan picked up his phone, he said something like "Hey Bob, what's going on", but I'm not sure whether it's worth an article. ::And I suggest that you guys take Felsted shootout casualties and MF commandos issues into consideration. --William 10:46, January 10, 2012 (UTC) :::Yeah, I forgot about the felsted security, even though we'd resolved it on the talk page I never went and did the changes. I'll do it now. :::As for the other Rockland building body - that's definitely the same body as the guy killed by Curtis (comparison here) It's on the same floor, in the same position, next to the same set of doors. When Curtis said 4 alive, I believe he was referring to Ali, Marwan, Forbes, and the other guy killed by Castle's men. :::And I don't see what needs to be changed with the MF commandoes. At 7:53 Castle said he could see 6 down outside - and there are six kills on the list before that (4 by Jack, 1 by Safa and 1 by Paul Raines). What needs changing?--Acer4666 (talk) 15:44, January 10, 2012 (UTC) :I'm not sure about the "4 alive", let's wait for others' opinions. :Jack killed 3 commandos outside the store. The fourth kill and Paul's and Safa's kill were made inside the store. But when Castle's team reached the location, he said "Six down outside", which means they probably killed another 3 commandos off-screen? --William 15:59, January 10, 2012 (UTC) ::Ah, that makes sense. I'll add an extra three MF commandos, if no-one has objections by tomorrow.--Acer4666 (talk) 16:07, January 10, 2012 (UTC) :::Added, summarised it above and added another issue with Day 6.--Acer4666 (talk) 17:12, January 13, 2012 (UTC) Bierko's 3:36am prison escort The survivors of the Bierko prison escort are only: Davis (Day 5), the terrorist who was driving, and Bierko himself. Everyone else got killed, and I'm seeing at least 3 of them: two TAC guys who flank Bierko as he sits down in the van, and the driver of the lead car which is a sedan that gets blown up with an IED. When Davis makes his report, there are 2 corpses, as far as I can tell these were the two guys I mentioned earlier. Interestingly there is a flaming wreck behind the van, in addition to the flaming sedan in front of it. I suppose this is supposed to be a third CTU vehicle? Davis does say to Karen "two vehicle escort" which might mean "2 vehicles are escorting the main transport" for a total of three. Since there has to be at least 1 guy in that third vehicle, the count goes up to 4 deaths minimum. (I don't want to raise the number higher than 4 because I cannot prove that there was anyone else in either the lead or the rear vehicle besides the drivers, and it does not seem possible to determine if anyone was seated in the passenger seat next to the terrorist driver. Also it looks like Davis was sitting alone across from Bierko.) 09:14, April 23, 2012 (UTC) :That all makes sense to me--Acer4666 (talk) 12:58, April 23, 2012 (UTC) :: Added, but I'm making sure with William that it wasn't 5 men, as he suggested back in January. 21:22, July 23, 2012 (UTC) Adding ticks I just went through and added checkmark ticks to all the stuff I know was added, for the purpose of making it clear what else needs to be looked at again. Feel free to add ticks if you know the content was added/subtracted/vetoed. I do know I missed a few. 21:22, July 23, 2012 (UTC) Season 4, 5, and 6 Prequels Since Redemption is the prequel for Season 7 (and is referred to as a "prequel" for Season 7 by many sites online), should the deaths from the prequels of the previous three seasons be included (I believe five total)? I'm unsure of why Redemption's deaths are included but not those. Nfl392 (talk) 18:19, July 24, 2012 (UTC) :Many reasons - the prequels are "expanded universe" just like novels & games because they were never shown as episodes on TV. They were just special features on a DVD, whereas Redemption was an episode shown on TV. It's actually a "prologue", so those (unofficial) sites are wrong to call it a prequel (just as the "official" prequels are wrongly named). :Also, the time periods covered by the prequels often span the entire gap between the seasons, so we would often have to include all mentioned deaths from novels, games etc. that happened in between the seasons. I believe the point of this page is to count deaths that happened during the time period covered by aired episodes of the TV show, as per the introductory paragraph.--Acer4666 (talk) 19:29, July 24, 2012 (UTC) Season 6 Prequel Regardless of whether the prequel deaths are included or not: In the Season 6 prequel, of course the whole "escape" was a ruse but were those Chinese guards actually killed by the mercenaries (I don't doubt that Cheng Zhi and the Chinese government would be willing to let them get killed as long as the ruse worked) or were the shootings fake, a la Greg Seaton and Stokes (Day 7)? Nfl392 (talk) 18:22, July 24, 2012 (UTC) :I don't believe that is ever revealed--Acer4666 (talk) 19:30, July 24, 2012 (UTC)